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Post by sticky on Nov 15, 2010 17:25:08 GMT
No, it's totally different. The chocolate eggs only exist because of Easter, as would the plane song, were you to write it, only exist because of 9/11. Hammer and Anvil, on the other hand, is an album that was released not for any external purpose, but simply because of the creative energy of its makers. It happened to have a song called Armistice, because that's a good name for the closing song of an album about war. The fact that there's also a day called Armistice day had nothing to do with the titling of that song. But since the song IS so titled, an opportunity AROSE, quite by chance, to use this. The opportunity was not CREATED by the band saying, oh look, let's write a song to fit with a certain occasion for marketing purposes, unlike the eggs which were only made because they were aimed to exploit a certain opportunity. There are two different kinds of opportunity. Big difference. The day is intended to remember those who gave their lives. Releasing a song does not prevent this happening, indeed in my opinion in some ways it could help people think about war, especially a song as beautiful and well-composed as Armistice. I think it's a really nice gesture, which honours the spirit of the occasion. Having said this, I agree that the way it was done was too corporate to be really tasteful, hence the ambivalence of my previous post. What I strongly disagree with, however, is the insinuation that this was a pre-calculated ploy purely designed to increase sales. wow, seems to be a lot of reading in between the lines there! however, I'm not going to argue for the sake of it, so I'll agree to disagree with you there. obviously not saying the song was recorded as a marketing ploy, but why else would they make it available on remembrance day? my brother in law is serving in iraq at the moment, and when I told my sister she was mortified! |
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Post by briggsy on Nov 15, 2010 18:05:06 GMT
What I strongly disagree with, however, is the insinuation that this was a pre-calculated ploy purely designed to increase sales. Get real. If it wasn't a marketing ploy (and hence designed to increase sales), why wasn't it released on a totally innocuous date? Say November 3rd? This was a naff, crass move |
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Post by the dark fourth on Nov 15, 2010 19:37:03 GMT
Sorry, poor phrasing there. What I meant to say was, it wasn't ONLY a marketing ploy (obviously it was this - hence why I think they were too heavy on the marketing side), but it was also a nice gesture, which made a lot of sense to do. I just think it should have been done more tactfully, but the idea as a whole is considered and appropriate. This is my opinion only, obviously, but I do say this as someone who cares a lot about remembrance and thinks it's one of the most important occasions in the year.
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Post by butler on Nov 16, 2010 8:33:18 GMT
I think people are making mountains out of mole hills here.
The band recorded an album around the theme of World War 1, included on that album is a track called Armistice. On Armistice day, the band release the track for free.
Yes, there's an avenue of promotion there, but anyone who thinks Jon and co were twiddling their moustaches behind the scenes, putting together a grand plan to base their promotional campaign around the exploitation of Remembrance Day, is reaching for drama where there is none.
As I've said, in hindsight ryan's suggestion of offering the download for a donation to the Poppy Appeal would have been a classier way of doing things, but as it was, the worst you could say is that it was an ill judged move, whilst others (myself included) view it as a fitting gesture to the day.
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Post by sticky on Nov 16, 2010 10:42:27 GMT
I think people are making mountains out of mole hills here. The band recorded an album around the theme of World War 1, included on that album is a track called Armistice. On Armistice day, the band release the track for free. Yes, there's an avenue of promotion there, but anyone who thinks Jon and co were twiddling their moustaches behind the scenes, putting together a grand plan to base their promotional campaign around the exploitation of Remembrance Day, is reaching for drama where there is none. As I've said, in hindsight ryan's suggestion of offering the download for a donation to the Poppy Appeal would have been a classier way of doing things, but as it was, the worst you could say is that it was an ill judged move, whilst others (myself included) view it as a fitting gesture to the day. I agree. it would have been a nice gesture to put it for download with a donation to the poppy appeal. However, I'm not agreeing that it was a nice gesture for the day, as it isn't a 'tribute' as such, nor is it giving any sort of credit to the armed forces. I think for someone in the armed forces, the content of the album itself can be deemed quite offensive. I guess from their perspective, these are lyrics written by people who only know about war through watching documentaries and reading books. If a conflict arose tomorrow, they wouldn't be anywhere to be seen. |
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Post by the dark fourth on Nov 16, 2010 11:31:13 GMT
I think for someone in the armed forces, the content of the album itself can be deemed quite offensive. I guess from their perspective, these are lyrics written by people who only know about war through watching documentaries and reading books. If a conflict arose tomorrow, they wouldn't be anywhere to be seen. wtf? So soldiers don't think anyone else should talk or think about war? That's like saying politicians don't think anyone else should do politics. Oh wait...they do think that. I'd like you to point out one line in H&A that is offensive. There is not a single word of disrespect in the whole thing. If anything, the lyrics praise the bravery of people faced with such a horrible situation. Further, war is one of the most widely treated topics in art. Do you think the poems of Wilfred Owen are offensive? True, he was a soldier. But what about Sebastian Faulks? Do you think all the novels, documentaries, music and films are offensive? Is "the pianist" offensive to Polish people who went through the Holocaust? Are journalists going to conflict zones offensive? Surely war is one of the most important things in the world - it is of interest to humanity. I honestly mean no disrespect at all to anyone who is fighting, I have serious admiration for most of them. But I resent the idea that just because I would never choose to fight myself I have somehow sacrificed my right to think or write about one of the most astonishing phenomena of human kind. |
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Post by sticky on Nov 16, 2010 11:51:57 GMT
WOW! way to be defensive, there...
did I say I found the album offensive? no, I did not.
As I mentioned in my previous post, my brother in law is in the armed forces, and is currently serving in Iraq.
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have an opinion on the subject, but again, you have absolutely NO idea what war is like. unless of course you refer to this 'art' you speak of, in which case, you're a fucking sergeant.
and I'm not saying that I do, but I can see the effect it is having right here.
Jon's 'obsession' with war will be as fleeting as his obsession with Pink Floyd/Led Zepplin (Dark Third), or Nine Inch Nails/Depeche Mode (Amor Vincit Omnia).
the next album, he won't give a fuck about it.
and THAT is what I find offensive.
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Post by sticky on Nov 16, 2010 11:55:47 GMT
What I strongly disagree with, however, is the insinuation that this was a pre-calculated ploy purely designed to increase sales. Get real. If it wasn't a marketing ploy (and hence designed to increase sales), why wasn't it released on a totally innocuous date? Say November 3rd? This was a naff, crass move can't say I agree with you that it was 'crass', but maybe they could have put a bit more thought into it. |
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Post by the dark fourth on Nov 16, 2010 12:04:41 GMT
Why is it offensive to be interested in war and then be interested in something else? Do you have to remain permanently obsessed with war for your whole life?
I never claimed to have a real idea what war is like, but that doesn't make my opinion less valid than someone who does.
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Post by sticky on Nov 16, 2010 12:16:07 GMT
It just seems childish to me. War is massive, it's huge.
This is something that takes peoples lives, it breaks up families, it is a horrible, horrible thing.
It is NOT a hobby.
Yes - i do prefer to leave war to the people fighting it.
Yes - I do prefer to leave politics to politicians. the only people who think they have say in politics, are simple americans who voted for Obama.
and Yes, your opinion is less valid.
Just because you've read a load of books, it doesn't make you a fucking genius.
I'll go up to a football fan and have a conversation with them about football.
My opinion will be less valid than theirs because I don't go to football matches, but I've read a few 'pieces of art' about football, so my opinion will be just as valid as theirs, right?
thought not.
I'm not going to continue this conversation with you any longer, because you appear to just want to be argumentative in defense of your adolescent obsession with Pure Reason Revolution.
(To the rest of the board - Sorry I'm being a negative nancy again! x)
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Post by ryan on Nov 16, 2010 12:19:20 GMT
I didn't mean to start this  Jon's 'obsession' with war will be as fleeting as his obsession with Pink Floyd/Led Zepplin (Dark Third), or Nine Inch Nails/Depeche Mode (Amor Vincit Omnia). the next album, he won't give a fuck about it. and THAT is what I find offensive. that's a massive assumption though, on all counts. |
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Post by AlExMachina on Nov 16, 2010 12:21:44 GMT
I don't want to get embroiled in discussion about the armistice download. I think it could have been done better, but I'd say that the more likely flow of interest is PRR fans thinking about war and remembrance, rather than war veterans listening to prog/electronica. I think it does serve to remind people to honour their war dead. But, yup, it could have been done better.
What I do rather disagree with is the notion that you have to experience something directly to be able to in some way understand it. You can put inverted commas around art all you like, mister, to in some way degrade or mock that concept but art is about empathy, for me. Empathy is one of the most important human qualities, and you can never have too much about it. To understand what another human feels, despite never having the experience of living as another, is the most important thing. Art is one of the key ways in which this happens. As TDF says, this function CANNOT just halt at war, or any other tragedy. While I hope I never need fight in a conflict, that shouldn't stop me from being able to voice my opinion on what war is like. As a British subject, there are at least two conflicts being waged in the middle-east and central Asia in my name. Just because I do not participate directly in the conflict, does not mean that I have no right to express a view. That view should always respect the bravery of those that fight, and not criticise the actions of the hard-working, loyal and considerate soldiers on the ground.
Oh, and for the record I think that's harsh on Jon. For a start you haven't compared like with like. Whilst Jon's musical interests have changed, the lyrical themes of the past two have been grander and more universal concepts (dreams and love), both of which cannot be said to be fleeting obsessions which depart on the whim of a need to record a new album. I've interviewed him about the record, and part of it stems from interest in his own family's involvement in the first world war, so to say that he doesn't respect those that have fought and paid the ultimate sacrifice is harsh indeed. But that is incidental: even if it were not the case that Courtney is personally connected, he would still have perfect freedom of lyrical comment, and his lyrics clearly honour the sacrifice and, er, "Valour" of those that fought, whilst not shying away from the brutality of conflict.
Anyway, hope I haven't been too harsh here, but I feel very strongly about the place of 'art' in commenting on that which the artist may not have directly experienced. Empathy is key.
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Post by admin on Nov 16, 2010 12:22:44 GMT
Ok all, just a little reminder to avoid making it personal- as the forum rules state, personal attacks and the use of strong language towards another member will not be tolerated. This also goes for similar attacks towards band members.
I understand this is a sensitive subject but just want to make sure we keep it on-topic please.
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Post by sticky on Nov 16, 2010 12:23:02 GMT
I didn't mean to start this Jon's 'obsession' with war will be as fleeting as his obsession with Pink Floyd/Led Zepplin (Dark Third), or Nine Inch Nails/Depeche Mode (Amor Vincit Omnia). the next album, he won't give a fuck about it. and THAT is what I find offensive. that's a massive assumption though, on all counts. I suppose it is, yes  |
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Post by the dark fourth on Nov 16, 2010 12:24:32 GMT
football doesn't affect you even if you're not involved. of course war is serious. It's the most serious thing there is. That is why every human should have a say.
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